Thank you for these posts ! After reading a few books on the subject, I am astounded at how much we DO know and how much we DO NOT know. The tarot is such an interesting object : constrained by its structure and subtle and infinite in its adaptation to the human mind. What works, works. And boy, does it work !
Here's an interesting one but I don't know if it's been translated in english : "Histoire du Tarot" by Isabelle Nadolny. She thinks that there were no meanings intended originally, that the choice of the trumps in the Tarot de Marseille was determined only by "fortune", i.e. there were many orders and different types of cards, and the most popular remained. You mentioned the Juno/Jupiter duo in place of La Papesse/Le Pape" : these were from the Tarot de Besançon, and I think the Tarot de Bruxelles (from Rouen in France !), because of the rise of protestantism. The order of the trumps of what we call Tarot de Marseille is, according to her, just that : an order from one type of what's been called Tarot de Marseille (not from Marseille originally, anyway).
Something interesting to note is that the famous "Ancien Tarot de Marseille" from Grimaud was actually an invention mixing multiple tarots in the 20th century for one reason only : Grimaud had bought almost all the card makers, and there was a demand, especially from the occultists. No tarot de Marseille was printed anymore ! Paul Marteau, who inherited the house Grimaud, saw it as an opportunity. And labeled this new deck "Ancien tarot de Marseille".
I think that there are a lot of things to discover, anyway. And it doesn't negate the extraordinary power of those cards, be it from the archetypes perspective, the psychological one, the numbers, the structure, the entire societies represented in them, and so on. The different adaptations of tarot, especially since the Waite-Smith, are, to me, the essential proof : it works if you let it work. Like anything, you have to decide what meaning you give them, of let them tell you something through analogy and metaphors. You can see so many things. Some will say argue see what you want to see. But I think the opposite is the case : you see what you don't want to see... It's a tool. You can kill somebody with a fork, but you can also eat with it.
You can use it in new and revolutionary ways. You can do spreads in a way nobody did before. You can create you own metaphors and use the tarot with them. Remember the time everybody started to talk about the brain as a computer ? It's not even close to the reality of it, but the metaphor still exists because it is the most understandable today. I think we are not finished with the tarot...
But to be honest, I also have an interest in Christophe Poncet's theories in "The Tarot of Marsilio". I haven't read it yet, but am planning to. I saw his documentary (available on Youtube) and read a lot of articles and reviews. He spoke about it at length in some interviews. I don't know if he's right, but I can't help but think that it is a beautiful story.
Nadolny's book sounds like she went with the triumphal sampler,. I'll eventually get around to expanding on many of these ideas in posts, but i definitely think there is a moral allegory that works on many levels. 'Determined by fortune' is partially true as fortune plays a central role, pun intended. The cards in each decad have a relationship with their counterparts in the next. Think of The Wheel as the axis and the cards as spokes on a wheel. 1. Magician is a young man in the lemniscate hat, 11. is a woman wearing that hat. 2. The Popess has faith, 12. the traitor is faithless. It's derived from mnemonic techniques, I got this idea reading Ronald Decker's book listed in my citations.
What we are looking is a renaissance masterpiece where there are many layers of meanings which are expressed through clever puns - linguistic, numeric, astrological. Broadly there is a moral lesson in the interplay between the 3 Act Structure. There are also moral lessons between each card. All men are subject to 6. their passions, if you can control your passions you can move forward like 7. the chariot, but to control the chariot you must balance virtue and vice and to do that you need 8. Justice, but in order to be Just you must be wise like the 9. Hermit, and so on. The Renaissance essays basically expressed this idea. Then the cards have the aforementioned relationship through fortune, but there are other relationships between the cards as well. It does end up like a Llullian wheel, or can if you really want to, it can do many of things if you want it to, I definitely think the hypothetical inventor had ambiguity in mind.
It's interesting you mention the french documentary, I watched it a few months ago, that spread they show in the end, 3 x 7 but it's a planetary metaphor might be the same/similar to the theory from John Shephard's book I talked about at the end of the article. I would like to hear more of the Marsilo theory. I read two esoteric tarots and he didn't give away much at all in that. I think the documentary might have given an interpretation for 2 cards? The Chariot interpretation was as you say beautiful, though I think it is more likely the TDM chariot was initially informed from the so-called Mantegna. Still Poncet may be right. Later artists saw the Chariot and thought Marsilo and went with it, though the Phaedrus meaning was always there even in Bembo's Chariot. I think the tarot inventor, or their artist(s), likely knew Greek and were well informed on Plato.
I really think you're right. I'm no historian, but it seems to me that these figures were not so "common" at the time. The fall of Constantinople in 1453 is the seed of the influence of more "oriental" philosophies and ancient books on western thinkers, most especially in Italy and then France. Some think that the exodus of Greek intellectuals to Italy marks the end of the Middle-Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance. So these neo-platonic ideas and their christian reformulation (through Marsilio in the first place) could not have happened before. I think he wrote the first translation of Plato. And you're right, the order presented at the end of the documentary is pretty inspiring.
Anyway, I love these theories because it forces us to look at the tarot from other perspectives. I think there was a "message" or a "metaphor" in these Trumps from the start, but not an esoteric one -- esoteric as it would be imagined by Levi or Papus in the 19th century. As a game to express Plato's ideals, maybe. But also as a story about growth, morals, transformation. And strangely, it's a rather rough look at humanity.
But what I love most, is that every new order (Justice and Force at each other's place, for instance), every way at organizing the major arcana, can lead you to some other way of understanding. In the act of organizing these cards, you create a new metaphor. By three, bu four, by seven, and so on, you can see how the cards respond to each other. I'm going to write about that when I launch my newsletter !
There are a wealth of cognates for all of the figures in tarot with the exception of the hanged man, of which tarot preserves the oldest example. tarot's depictions of the estates of man was conservative even for its' own time. The virtues go back to plato's republic and were ubiquitous in the middle ages, as was the wheel which was infamous through the works of boethius, boccaccio and many others. the third act is mostly informed from the bible. gods had been depicted in the mandorla as far back as the orphic phanes. the evangelist animals and their astrological associations go back to early christianity, who were way into astrology.
plato's republic was well known pre marsilo, but we do need marsilo for the phaedrus. Though i dont think it was ever really lost, just not in latin, you could have learned greek and read it yourself. Many artists in the quattrocentro knew greek and would travel there to study classics. Francesco Squarcione is an example of this, who taught many others including Cosme Tura.
I will be posting my full conclusions on all of this soon, i need to wrap up the meaning of tarot and make a new video already. Have you watched the first two? These last few months of posts have been me working out my ideas for the third episode. I had a script ready back in December, but then every time i would sit down to work on it i would end up finding out new things that would change or alter what i was going to write about. It's fascinating subject that intersects so many different fields of study you could spend a lifetime and not be done with it.
Anyways thank you for comment, i look forward to your newsletter!
And to be precise : I think the Poncet's theory is related only to one type of the Tarot de Marseille. He's not saying that Marsilo invented tarot, but that the images in the most known tarot de Marseille type is a depiction of Marsilo's views on Plato, among other things. But I should finally buy this book to know more about it !
Yes you're right. I don't have a perfect answer to all these enigmas, but I love that others do the research ! We are talking about times so far from now and with so much information ! Everybody can get an opinion on these figures, and then... like in any tarot reading, a new information change the whole picture. It's fascinating. I like this quest.
I didn't watch your first two videos yet, but I'll take the time ! What I like about your work is precisely that you take your time and present all these theories.
As a tarot reader, an artist and a writer, I have my own perspective -- or my own take : I use these theories, ideas and images as prompts, as symbols and as metaphors to nurture my own understanding of NOW. And I think, at the end of the day, that that's tarot is all about : life, now, the past, the present, the future, inside thoughts, outside events, growth, change, evolution, transformation.
But I'm incredibly interested in what others have to say about their own take on it. These posts of yours are eye opening and food for thought. Can't wait to read your next one !
Glad I could help! There is another book somewhat tarot related that Campbell edited 'The King and the Corpse' it was written by a friend of his and covers many tarot inspired themes.
Thank you so much for these fascinating posts!
Thank you for these posts ! After reading a few books on the subject, I am astounded at how much we DO know and how much we DO NOT know. The tarot is such an interesting object : constrained by its structure and subtle and infinite in its adaptation to the human mind. What works, works. And boy, does it work !
Thank you for your kind comment! Any books you would recommend?
Here's an interesting one but I don't know if it's been translated in english : "Histoire du Tarot" by Isabelle Nadolny. She thinks that there were no meanings intended originally, that the choice of the trumps in the Tarot de Marseille was determined only by "fortune", i.e. there were many orders and different types of cards, and the most popular remained. You mentioned the Juno/Jupiter duo in place of La Papesse/Le Pape" : these were from the Tarot de Besançon, and I think the Tarot de Bruxelles (from Rouen in France !), because of the rise of protestantism. The order of the trumps of what we call Tarot de Marseille is, according to her, just that : an order from one type of what's been called Tarot de Marseille (not from Marseille originally, anyway).
Something interesting to note is that the famous "Ancien Tarot de Marseille" from Grimaud was actually an invention mixing multiple tarots in the 20th century for one reason only : Grimaud had bought almost all the card makers, and there was a demand, especially from the occultists. No tarot de Marseille was printed anymore ! Paul Marteau, who inherited the house Grimaud, saw it as an opportunity. And labeled this new deck "Ancien tarot de Marseille".
I think that there are a lot of things to discover, anyway. And it doesn't negate the extraordinary power of those cards, be it from the archetypes perspective, the psychological one, the numbers, the structure, the entire societies represented in them, and so on. The different adaptations of tarot, especially since the Waite-Smith, are, to me, the essential proof : it works if you let it work. Like anything, you have to decide what meaning you give them, of let them tell you something through analogy and metaphors. You can see so many things. Some will say argue see what you want to see. But I think the opposite is the case : you see what you don't want to see... It's a tool. You can kill somebody with a fork, but you can also eat with it.
You can use it in new and revolutionary ways. You can do spreads in a way nobody did before. You can create you own metaphors and use the tarot with them. Remember the time everybody started to talk about the brain as a computer ? It's not even close to the reality of it, but the metaphor still exists because it is the most understandable today. I think we are not finished with the tarot...
But to be honest, I also have an interest in Christophe Poncet's theories in "The Tarot of Marsilio". I haven't read it yet, but am planning to. I saw his documentary (available on Youtube) and read a lot of articles and reviews. He spoke about it at length in some interviews. I don't know if he's right, but I can't help but think that it is a beautiful story.
Nadolny's book sounds like she went with the triumphal sampler,. I'll eventually get around to expanding on many of these ideas in posts, but i definitely think there is a moral allegory that works on many levels. 'Determined by fortune' is partially true as fortune plays a central role, pun intended. The cards in each decad have a relationship with their counterparts in the next. Think of The Wheel as the axis and the cards as spokes on a wheel. 1. Magician is a young man in the lemniscate hat, 11. is a woman wearing that hat. 2. The Popess has faith, 12. the traitor is faithless. It's derived from mnemonic techniques, I got this idea reading Ronald Decker's book listed in my citations.
What we are looking is a renaissance masterpiece where there are many layers of meanings which are expressed through clever puns - linguistic, numeric, astrological. Broadly there is a moral lesson in the interplay between the 3 Act Structure. There are also moral lessons between each card. All men are subject to 6. their passions, if you can control your passions you can move forward like 7. the chariot, but to control the chariot you must balance virtue and vice and to do that you need 8. Justice, but in order to be Just you must be wise like the 9. Hermit, and so on. The Renaissance essays basically expressed this idea. Then the cards have the aforementioned relationship through fortune, but there are other relationships between the cards as well. It does end up like a Llullian wheel, or can if you really want to, it can do many of things if you want it to, I definitely think the hypothetical inventor had ambiguity in mind.
It's interesting you mention the french documentary, I watched it a few months ago, that spread they show in the end, 3 x 7 but it's a planetary metaphor might be the same/similar to the theory from John Shephard's book I talked about at the end of the article. I would like to hear more of the Marsilo theory. I read two esoteric tarots and he didn't give away much at all in that. I think the documentary might have given an interpretation for 2 cards? The Chariot interpretation was as you say beautiful, though I think it is more likely the TDM chariot was initially informed from the so-called Mantegna. Still Poncet may be right. Later artists saw the Chariot and thought Marsilo and went with it, though the Phaedrus meaning was always there even in Bembo's Chariot. I think the tarot inventor, or their artist(s), likely knew Greek and were well informed on Plato.
I really think you're right. I'm no historian, but it seems to me that these figures were not so "common" at the time. The fall of Constantinople in 1453 is the seed of the influence of more "oriental" philosophies and ancient books on western thinkers, most especially in Italy and then France. Some think that the exodus of Greek intellectuals to Italy marks the end of the Middle-Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance. So these neo-platonic ideas and their christian reformulation (through Marsilio in the first place) could not have happened before. I think he wrote the first translation of Plato. And you're right, the order presented at the end of the documentary is pretty inspiring.
Anyway, I love these theories because it forces us to look at the tarot from other perspectives. I think there was a "message" or a "metaphor" in these Trumps from the start, but not an esoteric one -- esoteric as it would be imagined by Levi or Papus in the 19th century. As a game to express Plato's ideals, maybe. But also as a story about growth, morals, transformation. And strangely, it's a rather rough look at humanity.
But what I love most, is that every new order (Justice and Force at each other's place, for instance), every way at organizing the major arcana, can lead you to some other way of understanding. In the act of organizing these cards, you create a new metaphor. By three, bu four, by seven, and so on, you can see how the cards respond to each other. I'm going to write about that when I launch my newsletter !
There are a wealth of cognates for all of the figures in tarot with the exception of the hanged man, of which tarot preserves the oldest example. tarot's depictions of the estates of man was conservative even for its' own time. The virtues go back to plato's republic and were ubiquitous in the middle ages, as was the wheel which was infamous through the works of boethius, boccaccio and many others. the third act is mostly informed from the bible. gods had been depicted in the mandorla as far back as the orphic phanes. the evangelist animals and their astrological associations go back to early christianity, who were way into astrology.
plato's republic was well known pre marsilo, but we do need marsilo for the phaedrus. Though i dont think it was ever really lost, just not in latin, you could have learned greek and read it yourself. Many artists in the quattrocentro knew greek and would travel there to study classics. Francesco Squarcione is an example of this, who taught many others including Cosme Tura.
I will be posting my full conclusions on all of this soon, i need to wrap up the meaning of tarot and make a new video already. Have you watched the first two? These last few months of posts have been me working out my ideas for the third episode. I had a script ready back in December, but then every time i would sit down to work on it i would end up finding out new things that would change or alter what i was going to write about. It's fascinating subject that intersects so many different fields of study you could spend a lifetime and not be done with it.
Anyways thank you for comment, i look forward to your newsletter!
And to be precise : I think the Poncet's theory is related only to one type of the Tarot de Marseille. He's not saying that Marsilo invented tarot, but that the images in the most known tarot de Marseille type is a depiction of Marsilo's views on Plato, among other things. But I should finally buy this book to know more about it !
Yes you're right. I don't have a perfect answer to all these enigmas, but I love that others do the research ! We are talking about times so far from now and with so much information ! Everybody can get an opinion on these figures, and then... like in any tarot reading, a new information change the whole picture. It's fascinating. I like this quest.
I didn't watch your first two videos yet, but I'll take the time ! What I like about your work is precisely that you take your time and present all these theories.
As a tarot reader, an artist and a writer, I have my own perspective -- or my own take : I use these theories, ideas and images as prompts, as symbols and as metaphors to nurture my own understanding of NOW. And I think, at the end of the day, that that's tarot is all about : life, now, the past, the present, the future, inside thoughts, outside events, growth, change, evolution, transformation.
But I'm incredibly interested in what others have to say about their own take on it. These posts of yours are eye opening and food for thought. Can't wait to read your next one !
I didn’t know about Joesph Campbell book on tarot! Awesome, ordering it now!
Glad I could help! There is another book somewhat tarot related that Campbell edited 'The King and the Corpse' it was written by a friend of his and covers many tarot inspired themes.
Perfect